Episode 164: Developing the Leader Within with Geri Gottlieb of GG Practice Coaching & Development
This transcript with our Jameson Files host Carrie Webber has been lightly edited for flow. To enjoy the audio, you can watch on YouTube or listen to our podcast on iTunes, Google Play, or Spotify.
Carrie:
Welcome to the Jameson Files. I’m your host, Carrie Webber, and it’s always so great to be with the Jameson community introducing you to amazing people in our profession that are doing amazing things for dentists and teams. I’m really happy to have Geri Gottlieb on my podcast today. Geri, if you don’t know Geri and, and her company, GG Practice Coaching and Development…. Did I get it right, Geri?
Geri Gottlieb:
You did.
Carrie:
…she’s doing amazing things and has been in the dental industry for, goodness, almost 30 years.
Geri Gottlieb:
32
Carrie:
Over 30 years. So doing great things throughout that history.
Geri Gottlieb:
Started in ortho.
Carrie:
Oh, wow. So, this is a woman that if you don’t know this person, you need to know this person, if for nothing else, then if you need a good dose of energy in your life, Geri’s the person to bring it to you. So, Geri, thank you for being with me today. I appreciate you.
Geri Gottlieb:
My pleasure. My pleasure. As soon as I got the invitation, I said, of course, I would spend time with Carrie. You kidding?
Carrie:
I have a feeling this conversation may go off the rails at least three times, but I’m gonna love every minute of it.
Geri Gottlieb:
Exactly.
Geri Gottlieb’s Beginning in Dentistry
Carrie:
So obviously I need to learn a little bit more about your story into dentistry, too. So let’s start there. Tell me a little bit about how you started, how you found yourself where you are today. I’m sure there’s a lot of interesting stuff in that journey.
Geri Gottlieb:
So, I was recruited into my first dental practice, which was an ortho practice, while I was in college pursuing a degree in psychology with a minor in music.
Carrie:
Oh my gosh.
Geri Gottlieb:
I know Miss. Singer, we’re twins, like, we’re spirits.
Carrie:
Okay, keep going.
Geri Gottlieb:
So I was, and I was working full-time for Macy’s. It wasn’t Macy’s at the time. So I’m from Seattle area, and at the time it was actually called the Bon Marché, and then Macy’s bought them out. But I was managing a Clinique cosmetic counter and going to school, and one day I was helping a gentleman with skincare products, and he said, “I want you to come work for me.” And I said, “What do you do?” And he said, “Well, I’m a dentist.” And do you know that little Christmas story cartoon thing where the little elves and the one little elf that wants to be the dentist? And then he says that at the table and everybody goes, “Ah dentist!”
This is what’s happening in my brain. And I’m like, I have teeth. I go to the dentist. Never, never had it ever been a thought in my brain of possible career choices or jobs that I would look to have. And he said “You know, I’m an orthodontist and I’m opening a practice, and I could train you on to be an assistant and everything. I could train you to do everything I need you to do, but I can’t train you to be you.”
And I thought, well, I gotta really think about this. And I was newly married at the time, and I said, “Well, tell me a little bit more.” And he told me to come visit the practice, kick the tires, see what it’s like. Here’s what I knew. They worked four days a week, no evenings or weekends. And my whole life, and even going to school, I was working in retail, and working that evenings and weekends and holidays. So for me, I was like, “Oh, yeah.”
Carrie:
This sounds cushy.
Geri Gottlieb:
And he said, “You could still finish school. Work around it.” And I was like, “Okay.” Long story short, I started off as an assistant. A couple of really unexpected things happened, Carrie. One is I fell in love with dentistry. I fell in love with watching people’s lives change. Countenances change. I fell in love with having relationships with patients that were coming in and then seeing them again. Team–I’d never really done team sports or things like that–so I was loving that aspect of it.
About six months in, I don’t know where it was. It is 32 years ago now. So it could have been six weeks, it could have been six months. But at some point this doctor says to me, “Geri, do you have a few minutes after work today or tomorrow, whatever, to sit down? And I’d like to talk about how it’s going.” So basically a review. And I was like, “Yeah, of course.” And so we sit down and he said, “How do you think it’s going?” And I started just jabbering on about all the things I think are so great and that I love, and I love being there. And he said, “And we love having you here, and assisting is not your gift.”
Carrie:
Okay.
Geri Gottlieb:
And so I thought like, “Oh, I’m getting fired. Okay, well, we tried it, you know? Whatever.” And he said, “But if you’re willing, would you consider the role of treatment coordinator?”
Carrie:
Oh, wow.
Geri Gottlieb:
It turns out I was really good at that. So I said, “ Of course.”
Fast forward, then I became a practice manager, went on to work in other practices and then other disciplines in dentistry. But perio didn’t come into the picture until my 21st year in dentistry at that point. So, you know, I continued my education, but I also dove into dentistry. I loved everything about it. And I was pretty fortunate to get to work with, and in, practices that truly were about continuing education, growing and developing people, which was right up my alley because my degree in psychology was meant to be child development.
I wanted to work with teenage and preteen girls, because I really just wanted to help. Back when I decided that’s what I was going to do at 18, it was how can we work together better? Why do we have to compete with each other? Why aren’t we just working together on things and helping each other have better lives and be better? So I thought, well, I’ll catch ’em when they’re young and try them through high school and get them, you know, whatever.
Carrie:
I’ll fix this early.
How Geri Became Involved in Dental Coaching
Geri Gottlieb:
So fast forward, I’m in practice management, you know, over in practice administration– big practices, little practices–and I was divorced with two little girls and was a part of the Seattle Study Club with one of the practices I was managing. We were Seattle Study Club members, and it was through the Seattle Study Club that I met my periodontist husband.
And I did not work for him or them. I wasn’t their coach. We met through the Seattle Study Club, and I had already started my journey into coaching. And at the same time, Carrie, I had gone back to school to get a master’s in psychology. Because I thought I had to leave dentistry. I thought, I, as a single mom, was gonna raise these two girls. I wanted them to go to college. I wanted them to not have to work through college and those sorts of things. So I thought, well, I’ve got to do some more things.
Which is sort of right at the same time as when I started going into consulting coaching. I was going to school and one of my mentors said to me, “What are you going to do with it? What are you going to do with that mask? Are you leaving dentistry, an industry that you know and love?” And I was like, “I don’t, oh, I don’t know.” And she said, “Why can’t you do what you want to do in the industry that you already know and love?”
So that’s how I stepped into the consulting and coaching arena. I proxy got into the perio, and I actually never worked in the practices.
Carrie:
Oh, wow!
Geri Gottlieb:
I coached the leadership team of those practices, but I never actually worked in them.
Carrie:
I think your story is so fascinating from the perspective of that orthodontist. All of us that teach doctors on building a strong team, and hiring, and also leading a team, he checked all the boxes. He found a person who didn’t have dental experience, but had the potential or had the characteristics that would make a tremendous team member in the culture of their practice.
And then you weren’t in the right seat, and he saw that. So he had the right team member on the bus, but in the wrong seat. And he put you in the right seat, and the rest is history. That’s a pretty phenomenal story. I’m sure you share that story a lot with teams and doctors, because that’s the ticket right there. If doctors can have this “aha” moment as a business owner of, “hire the talent, make room to train talent in your culture and in your practice, and then have this awareness of the talent on your team, and make sure you have the right people in the right places so that everyone can thrive.” I mean, you’re the story.
How Being a Business Owner Affected Geri’s Coaching
Geri Gottlieb:
Correct. Right. And actually then stepping out– so practice management, and thinking then I’m going to be a consultant. I know all the things. I’m real, I’m good. Look at me. I’m really good at all the things too, by the way. And when I stepped into ownership shoes, it was like a gut punch and all this awareness that I had no idea what I didn’t know, and how hard it is to be the practice owner, the dentist, and be a great leader, and a great practitioner, and, and, and….
So between what you just said, Carrie and my own stepping into those shoes and seeing it from this 10,000 foot view as well as having been on the ground, I’ve gotta help not just build leadership teams, like it was done for me. But even more than that to help teams develop and be so strong around their doctor owners that we don’t even know who that boss is.
Carrie:
Yes. Yes.
Geri Gottlieb:
Because I had had that.
Carrie:
And you know that direct experience of being the team member and being the owner, that the level of empathy and understanding that that gives you is pretty powerful. I’m sure you experienced that on the daily.
Geri Gottlieb:
On the daily. Well, I think it’s helpful for teams to know that story about me. And Kim, my associate, because she also had worked for Bob and Michael. And you know, like I’ve been in your seat. I’ve been in all the seats, except the clinical ones because I’m not good at those. I tried.
Carrie:
You tried.
Geri Gottlieb:
I tried. I clean a room. I’ll tell you what, I can clean a room, clean instruments up. No problem. But just don’t let me work on teeth.
And then I’ve stepped into ownership shoes. And then I went another step which was already pretty devastating– awareness. And I actually went back and apologized to a couple doctors owners that I worked for that I was supposed to be their right hand and know the things. And, you know, I was just as snarky and poopy sometimes behind their backs as teams are sometimes. Because I didn’t know, I didn’t understand what it’s like to be that. And then take a next step and go ahead and launch your own company and be the company.
Carrie:
Yes.
Geri Gottlieb:
And I’m just like, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I just didn’t know. So here’s what I’d like to do to make amends for that. I’d like to develop teams, but we gotta let teams know.
The Importance of Vulnerability in Leadership
Carrie:
Yes. I think that’s such a good point. The author Brene Brown talks about this all the time. She talks about vulnerability in leadership and I think that’s really hard for doctors. You and I both have conversations with doctors all the time as they’re considering bringing in a coach. It’s a really vulnerable step. A lot of times, I have a feeling, I don’t know all that there is to know about what you do one-on-one with your clients, but I have this feeling, my sister, that there’s some similarities of trying to encourage them to be more transparent with their teams. To your point, Geri, if any part of you as a practice owner or a leader, for anyone that’s listening that are in those roles, if any of you desire a culture that is a group of leaders, building up leadership within your team to believe in where you want to go, helping you go there, taking responsibility and a sense of ownership in that, there has to be a level of transparency and vulnerability in your leadership for you to ever get to that place.
Now people can go ahead and come at me in the comments and disagree, but I feel pretty strongly about this. You know, when it’s hard, you think they don’t know it’s hard? When you’re stressed out and struggling, you don’t think they already know? And so to have that kind of openness, vulnerability of even sharing the things you don’t know the solutions to, and asking for them to help you find those solutions can be so powerful for the culture of the practice. Is that something that you work on with clients as well and with doctors and teams?
Geri Gottlieb:
A hundred percent. I’m gonna flip it just a little bit as well, but a hundred percent. And then I of course ask them to be as transparent as they feel comfortable being. But here’s what I know, and this is not just my own life, but it’s the last 11 plus years of coaching. So it’s some empirical data that I have as well that says, the more we as the team understand about every piece of the business and the practice, and the more you doctor owner can say, here’s what I’m really good at, and here’s the stuff I’m not good at.
The Importance of Empathy in Team Members
And so here’s where the flip comes. It’s for me also helping the teams see that I used to have the wrong glasses on. I used to think, what is wrong with my doctor owner? Why are they so not good at communication? Why are they not good at, you know, managing the team? Why do they get upset but they haven’t said anything or all of these different pieces. And so I also teach and say, “Look, we don’t know.” We expect them to know all the things. How can they know all the things and how can they be the practitioner and do all the things?
So instead of putting all of that weight on the doctor owner, let’s grow and take on some of that. And like you said, then the ownership piece. And what does that feel like? What if I can control this myself instead of asking my doctor to make me happy? What if I can do some things that make us all happier? Or make things easier.
Carrie:
So the “we should know, or they should know” is such a trap.
Geri Gottlieb:
Such a trap! And I used to think that…
Carrie:
It’s such a trap. Doctors are trapped in it thinking, well, I should know this. I should already know this. I should be able to do this. And then to your point, team members feel the same way. My doctor should be able to do this. My doctor should act this way. They should know this. And I had a personal leadership coach who used to call that “shoulding all over ourselves”.
Geri Gottlieb:
We’re shoulding all over ourselves.
Carrie:
Thanks Gail Canner for that one. But it’s such a trap that we get ourselves into. And I think there’s a tendency on the doctor’s side, because they’re doctors. We’re so highly educated already. These are things that should just come naturally to me.
The Consequences of Imposter Syndrome
Geri Gottlieb:
Right. And how come they don’t? And so then what we don’t realize is that then they also are struggling with imposter syndrome and all these other things that we do too. And we think that they certainly are not, but they are. The difference being they aren’t as vocal or feel as comfortable or safe to share it with us. And when you think about behavioral styles, I’m sure you do, you use some form of assessment for behavioral and communication styles. We use the same, and for most of our clinicians, they’re in that little bottom half typically. A few are up in the D dominant scale, especially the oral surgeons. So we’re already more introverted, more inclined to be like, “Well, hang on. And I should. And I want the team…”
Carrie:
You know, you dropped the term imposter syndrome and that rang a memory for me. You were at the AADOM annual meeting, was it this last year?
Geri Gottlieb:
Mm-Hmm.
Carrie:
Were you not in your classes working with some of the office managers on that specifically? So it’s not just the doctors that struggle with that. And you were working with office managers specifically at the AADOM annual meeting. Tell me a little bit about that and how that has found its way into your passion of what you’re working on with dental professionals.
Geri Gottlieb:
Well, of course the buzzword has been running around, right? Imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome. And so for me, it was what is this? And then as soon as I started diving into imposter syndrome, not only am I like, “Well there am I. There am I. Yep. I got that one, that one and that one.” I was like, “Well, this is what holds us back from being the best leaders we can be to being better managers and the difference between managing and leading.” And if we suffer from that. And I decided I was gonna be pretty vulnerable myself and share a poem that I have framed in my office that’s like, you know, people look at us or we look to our office managers like they should have all this confidence, or they do have confidence, or it seems like they’re very confident, but why this, this, this, and this, and why are we struggling with this? And why are we burning out? Right? So I really wanted to dive into what is imposter syndrome and then what are the different types? How does it show up? How does it show up in our leadership? How does it show up in our relationships? How does it show up in us taking a step towards the next level in our future or whatever we wanna do? And so that was mostly focused on the managers, to be honest, when I started that process.
Because I want to grow and develop people, and I definitely want to grow and develop practice managers and people to surround our doctors. But then I was like, well, wait a minute, we’re not the only ones that suffer with this. Our doctor owners do as well. And the data shows that men suffer from imposter syndrome close to the same amount that women do.
Carrie:
That’s interesting
Geri Gottlieb:
But we talk about it way less.
Carrie:
I can believe that. Right.
Geri Gottlieb:
Almost never. Almost never. And they don’t even realize it. Let’s use one, the superhero, that’s an imposter. The superhero manager who is, I do all the things and nobody can live without me. And you know, my desk has all the stickies all over it. Or here I come to save the day for everybody and the doctor and all the things all the time. That’s actually not healthy leadership or management. And we do that because we feel like if we’re not doing all of the things amazingly well, we’re an imposter and we shouldn’t have this role.
Carrie:
Right.
Geri Gottlieb:
So I use it to break down where we get in trouble in how we lead and manage. And then how we are not growing other leaders and managers by thinking we have to do all the things ourselves, or thinking everything has to be perfect. You and I were talking earlier about all the bells and whistles. We think, do we have to do a podcast? We have to have this, we have to have this, we gotta have professional microphones, gotta have all the things before we can actually just sit down and talk like you.
Carrie:
Yeah.
Geri Gottlieb:
And I used to suffer from that too. Like, I gotta have this, I gotta have this, I gotta this and, and I gotta take 700 hours of instruction on this thing. I gotta be an expert before I can actually just use my voice to talk about it.
Carrie:
That’s right.
Geri Gottlieb:
And for me, I was like, no, we gotta just stop this.
Carrie:
Yeah. That is so powerful. When you think about professional development for anybody, no matter whoever’s watching or listening, if you’re in dentistry, if you’re not in dentistry, if you’re an assistant, if you’re an office manager, if you’re the doctor, professional development is twofold. It’s working as a team on developing the skills for your business, but it’s also working on yourself. And when you see as many dental team members and doctors and practices, Geri, as you and I and our teams have, you know that there’s not a specific behavioral style or person that fits a superstar.
Geri Gottlieb:
Correct.
Carrie:
I think a superstar is born out of someone that embraces both of those things and finds their fulfillment and their work when they pursue team excellence in development and personal excellence in development. Because imposter syndrome is a personal thing. And you can learn every system, every skill set, every software, every clinical technique, but if you have a deeply rooted imposter syndrome issue happening that you don’t work on, you’re never going to get to the pinnacle of whatever it is you’re striving for because you’re going to hold yourself back, perhaps unknowingly.
Geri Gottlieb:
Correct.
Carrie:
And so I think it’s so powerful that you’re digging in and working with teams on that specifically because they have to get freed from the things that they’re holding themselves back on in order to be their best at the things they’re working on for their careers.
Personality Doesn’t have to Determine Leadership Abilities
Geri Gottlieb:
A hundred percent. And what I find often is people don’t even realize they’re doing it. They haven’t put the language to it yet, but they don’t even realize that what they’re doing either by trying to be a superstar, or doing all the things, or taking all the excessive CE, or doing those things, they just don’t even know that they’re doing it. And then the implications of that.
But one of the other things you said that I love is, because I’m a high I, so those of you who know, I’m an ID with a lot of C hidden in there. I’m a data nerd. So that’s my secret thing that people don’t really realize, and it can appear– like you, Carrie– it can appear just by way of our behavioral style and communication that we’re super confident. And we’re so this, or you’re so that. And people say, “I’ll never be able to… I guess a leader has to be more like you.” Like zero. It takes all types, all styles.And this is from Brene Brown, “Who you are is how you lead.”
Carrie:
Yes.
Geri Gottlieb:
So if you’re more introverted and quiet, but you work to overcome those imposter pieces, there’s a great place for you as a leader, and teacher, and all of those things. You don’t have to be like, “Aaaah!” You know, my style of leading is maybe more high energy and let’s have fun with this, but I’m still holding to expectations and what have you. But that’s my style. It doesn’t make me a better leader or a worse leader than anybody else.
Carrie:
And, you know, we can learn and develop from the different behavioral styles. I actually need quiet, introverted, detail-oriented leaders that thrive in the details. I don’t, and so I need those people to hold me accountable and to lead me. And if I can help lead from my behavioral sauce for them, that’s where synergy happens– when we all embrace ourselves, work on the other ones. I need to work on being detail oriented. I need to know how to communicate with a more reserved person so I don’t absolutely send them off a cliff. All the magic of understanding different behavioral styles is knowing how we can be present with a person in the most effective way, but also where we’re strong, where we’re weak, where we can improve. If you believe in continuously developing and improving and bettering yourself, there’s magic in understanding your psychology and the psychology of others. It’s so powerful, especially in dentistry. So much about dentistry is relationship, communication, building trust, and that all falls in that realm of understanding how to talk to people, and presence, and how to bring your best to every conversation. I can only imagine.
Geri Gottlieb:
Yeah. And how to leverage the people around you that are different from you to also do those things.
How to Connect with Geri Gottlieb
Carrie:
Yes. So powerful. Geri. I would love to sit in one of your classes and gobble up all of your passion and all the things that you’ve been studying and learning and teaching. How do people find you? Tell me where people can find where you’re speaking next or how to learn more about your company or about you.
Geri Gottlieb:
Well, so listen, social media, of course, reluctantly, I am somewhat of a presence on social media. But really I let somebody else who likes to do those things handle it for us, because they know my voice. They know that if something is going to go out, they’re asking, “Does this sound like Geri or something that we say here?” But you can find me on social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and it’s Geri Gottlieb or GG Practice Coaching and Development. You can email me, Geri@GGPracticeCoachingand Development. Go to our website. I will be speaking next at AADOM.
Carrie:
Oh. But this time…
Geri Gottlieb:
I know this time is really special for me, actually. I have been invited to speak with and at the spouses.
Carrie:
Yes. I love that.
Geri Gottlieb:
We’re going to talk about that journey a little bit. And then also what I see as a coach in those spousal relationships within and without the practice and some things maybe we could avoid and help do better.
Carrie:
I love that.
Geri Gottlieb:
Really spend a lot of time on site with clients, Carrie, because that’s actually my obsession. My clients and the teams are my obsession, you know, speaking comes with doing what we do, and that’s lovely. And I love to have an impact. So if I can have opportunities to do that, then I say yes to those. And if I don’t think it’s going to be impactful, then I say no, because I’m busy hanging out with my clients.
Carrie:
I love that. Lucky clients. And, Geri, your passion and your energy, it’s just contagious.
Geri Gottlieb:
Carrie, vice versa.
Carrie:
I think we could talk forever about this. We barely even scratched the surface. So I do hope those of you that are listening, that you’ll go find Geri, go take a class, go find her online.
Geri Gottlieb:
I should say, we are doing– I know you do some too– we are doing some leadership development classes, specifically intimate small groups for would-be, and current, and at any level office managers.
Carrie:
That’s fabulous. So find Geri on their website, ggpracticecoaching.com. Is that right?
Geri Gottlieb:
Yeah, ggpracticecoaching.com.
Carrie:
Go learn more about what they’re doing out in the world. And Geri, you’re the best. Thank you so much for being your best today.
Geri Gottlieb:
Thank you.
Carrie:
And thanks to all of you for joining us. I wish you all the best. Go do something to help improve your careers and go out there and live the healthiest, happiest lives that you can. Until next time, be well. We’ll see you soon.
Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Jameson Files. Visit us online. You can subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, Google Play, or Spotify. See you next time.